Curse

upier · Nov 21, 2007, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

No, I try and not use Ursanway for anything, because it is entirely too mindless. Again, you flame me, saying I don't understand the game. Frankly, your wrong, and don't understand me. Mesmers are an unbelievable class, and with their PvE only skills, they finally can shine in PvE. But, the stereotype that they are only good in PvP has always been and still is extremely strong. So, they don't shine as brightly as they should.

The "Holy Trinity" has changed, but so have Mesmers. I am comparing current Mesmers with current PvE meta builds as I see them. However, I have been a bit busy devising a lovely new HA build as well as some TA goodies, so PvE is...2nd seat, short bus, w/e. PvE has never been important, and it never will be. THe only good news is, Mesmers are not very effective in it, which is plus for all of us Mesmer fans. The good groups bring a Mesmer to augment and increase the spike down potential of their group. All mesmer groups is a bit silly, but is a fun side thing to try. While Mesmers may never totally outclass a Warrior in DPS ability, or a Ranger in Raw interrupt potential, or an ele in continuous Condition/Damage ratios, they do have a defined spot in PvE now. They are powerful, so stop downplaying them, this isn't Pre Nightfall days anymore.

This has to be your best post I ever read. (If we disregard the assumptions you made of course!)
You're probably asking why the love all of a sudden.
The mesmer has a spot in PvE. Just like you said!
That thing that we (well some of us that feel that mesmer has issues) are arguing is that that spot isn't in the TOP 4.
It works - like pretty much everything else.
It's just that there are enough things that work better.

Ohh and the stereotype about mesmer being godly in PvP while being shit in PvE isn't stopping them from shining.
It's PvE that is stopping them.

Lord Sojar · Nov 21, 2007, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I fail to see how blinding a single target helps damage classes kill better. Damage classes have space on their bar for enough passive defense that they do not care. Even in this role, Necromancers serve better.

Perhaps you meant generally?

How many groups of mobs are there in the game that require Mesmer-specific shutdown?

Heavy damage bosses? My shouts and having a clue with prot reduce the damage, and if I had a ranger I just lock daze on them with either BHA (and then stick on them for total disruption, something a Mesmer cannot achieve with more expensive and slower interrupts) or Conc shot (and then proceed to splinterbarrage while midline casters just wand the boss).

Heavy defensive bosses? See above for a start. Furthermore, very few bosses can withstand a fully-offensive group's pressure. Willa the Unpleasant was hard only because you took a bunch of henchmen with terrible builds and couldn't stop their one healing skill, Orison, from being cast over and over. Orison, even there, will not outheal multiple heavy DPS characters (expecially as an enchant rip can be brought by anyone, such as Lyssa's Balance).

Mob groups pretty much follow the above. Mesmers are strong at creating opportunities, but you don't need to do that in PvE. You just kill the enemy, and dropping a DPS/support class isn't worth picking up some spike damage/shutdown if you're going for maximum efficiency. If you can't rip through a 2-monk group in PvE, there are other problems in your build setup that you can address, such as the lack of characters that deal continual DPS.

So adding in a Mesmer that can do 100+ in the Area blast damage isn't DPS efficient? You know, the echoed CoP combo when a mob is low on HP can very quickly kill them off. And with the stagnant pace of PvE, the recharge means..oh, nothing? Please, a 2 monk group? hahahah, a 2 monk group with 2 mesmers in your group becomes a 0 monk group in short order. As you said, AI is dumb, and mesmers rip through smart players quickly, so I wonder what they do to scripted dummies? Avarre, your taking the stance that a Mesmer is outclassed by another class, and shouldn't ever be in PvE. You, quite bluntly, are just wrong. There really is no other word for it, your just plain WRONG. I know that isn't something you are used to hearing, but tis true I am afraid. Continual DPS... oh, I didn't realize that 400-500 DPS in 2 seconds and recharging 10-12 seconds later is bad DPS.

Let's see... 8 pips of degen = -16 hp a second. So, 160 damage.

Assume a 108 Cry of Pain.

(108x2) = 216 + 160 = 376

376/15 = 25 DPS (from 3 skills)

Now, let's add in a shatter hex to that equation.

376+126= 502/15 = 33.47 DPS

Now, let's assume a HM Warrior Boss with 160 AL.

Searing flames @ 16 FM = 18.74 dmg.

Assuming burning as on him constantly via Mark of Rodgort, and you hit him 6x (assuming quick recharge 20% of the 5 possible casts in 15 seconds) that would be... 6x 19 = 114 dmg in 15 seconds.

114/15 = 7.6 DPS. EDIT: (burning = 334 dmg/15 secs = 22.3 DPS)

Hmmmm..... So in 15 seconds the mesmer has dished out 376 dmg using 3 skills, 4 if you include the arcane echo itself.

A searing flames ele has dished out 114 using 7 skills (that includes initial mark of rodgort cast) Alrighty.... yep, the ele wins for sure.

EDIT: I forgot burning, that was silly of me. 7x2= 14 x 15 = 210

so 334 dmg in 15 seconds. More respectable with burning calculated obviously, but I do believe the Mesmer is still out damaging the Ele here. Mesmers are underestimated.

arcanemacabre · Nov 21, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The mesmer has a spot in PvE. Just like you said!
That thing that we (well some of us that feel that mesmer has issues) are arguing is that that spot isn't in the TOP 4.
It works - like pretty much everything else.
It's just that there are enough things that work better.

Exactly. No one is saying Mesmers are sh*t. They're certainly not that. It's just that they aren't that great, either for PvE. There are better classes, and in a perfect world where when forming a PuG, you have the choice of any number of any class with the best player possible at the helm of each, the Mesmer would still be the last picked.

Avarre · Nov 21, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Lots of theory

Elementalists are not the best DPS classes. Physicals are.

And your entire block of Mesmergasmic numbers can be mimicked on another class because both Echo and Cry Of Pain are only Mesmer skills because they're placed in the skill list. They use no Mesmer attributes.

I could put all that on a Necromancer, have better energy management from Soul Reaping, and the rest of my skillbar would be even better because it wouldn't be tied to Illusion. You make a point for skills in the Mesmer class, but not for Mesmers at all because these skills aren't any better on a Mesmer, or even in the Mesmer attribute lines in the first place. I explained this above, perhaps you skimmed it.

upier · Nov 21, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

A searing flames ele has dished out 114 using 7 skills (that includes initial mark of rodgort cast) Alrighty.... yep, the ele wins for sure.

See - you didn't get it. This is what I was going at.
To seriously state it as simply as possible because you either can't understand it or won't understand it:
The evolved trinity doesn't include the ele any longer!
So it makes absolutely NO SENSE comparing the mesmer to the ele!

Sab · Nov 21, 2007, 11:07 AM // 11:07

That's not really a comparison between a Mesmer and a SF ele, that's a comparison between a guy with some PvE skills and a SF Ele.

Lord Sojar · Nov 21, 2007, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Exactly. No one is saying Mesmers are sh*t. They're certainly not that. It's just that they aren't that great, either for PvE. There are better classes, and in a perfect world where when forming a PuG, you have the choice of any number of any class with the best player possible at the helm of each, the Mesmer would still be the last picked.

No, the Assassin and or Paragon would fill that role.

In order of things, it usually goes as follows (most popular to least) The similar symbols mean they are interchangeable.

Monk
$Elementalist
$Warrior
*Necromancer
*Ranger
Dervish
%Mesmer
%Ritualist
Paragon
Assassin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

That's not really a comparison between a Mesmer and a SF ele, that's a comparison between a guy with some PvE skills and a SF Ele.

No, that is using Signet of Illusions @ 16 Illusion Magic. Meaning r11 Sunspear, GL getting that on any other character. Up it to 18 illusion for r13 sunspear for fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Elementalists are not the best DPS classes. Physicals are.

And your entire block of Mesmergasmic numbers can be mimicked on another class because both Echo and Cry Of Pain are only Mesmer skills because they're placed in the skill list. They use no Mesmer attributes.

I could put all that on a Necromancer, have better energy management from Soul Reaping, and the rest of my skillbar would be even better because it wouldn't be tied to Illusion. You make a point for skills in the Mesmer class, but not for Mesmers at all because these skills aren't any better on a Mesmer, or even in the Mesmer attribute lines in the first place. I explained this above, perhaps you skimmed it.

It's like saying necromancers are really good because Touch Rangers were effective.

Yep, I know your amazing necromancer can get r11 sunspear, just like the rest of your characters... wait. ANd your necro can cast all those spells in near spike speed because of fast casting, because N/Mes have fast casting because of their amazing ..soul reaping...oh, again...wait...

However, I won't argue with you regarding Physicals. Warriors and Dervish rip up PvE, until you run into pesky blind/blocking. Then, things change. A Mesmer will never compete with a warrior for dominance in PvE, period. But they do give necros and eles a run for their money via PvE only skills coupled with their utility skills. The new E-Burn is amazing in PvE. Great armor ignoring damage, as is Aneurysm.

Esan · Nov 21, 2007, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Elementalists are not the best DPS classes. Physicals are.

I think he means AoE dps. Even there, eles aren't king. Necros are.

Actually, if we allow PvE only skills, then necros have the highest indefinitely sustainable single-target dps with Necrosis.

Lord Sojar · Nov 21, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

I think he means AoE dps. Even there, eles aren't king. Necros are.

Actually, if we allow PvE only skills, then necros have the highest indefinitely sustainable single-target dps with Necrosis.

SOI + 18 Illusion Magic + Necrosis = Me/N > N/X. Mesmers seem to have this uncanny ability to play a primary caster class better then the primary caster itself can play.

Not that SS Necros and MMs are not great, because they are. Pain Inverter + SS + Spoil = fun times.

Avarre · Nov 21, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Yep, I know your amazing necromancer can get r11 sunspear, just like the rest of your characters... wait. ANd your necro can cast all those spells in near spike speed because of fast casting, because N/Mes have fast casting because of their amazing ..soul reaping...oh, again...wait...

Cry of Pain is 1/4 cast, in the first place. In the second, you just said;

Quote:

And with the stagnant pace of PvE, the recharge means..oh, nothing?

But apparently a slight differentiation in 2s casts (Arcane echo) and lower matters? Do you want me to take you seriously?

Not to mention 1 rank of sunspear is practically negligible given the fact you're giving up your elite slot to do it, compared to the Necro (in this example) who could run Spiteful Spirit. Not the best way to be efficient, good sir.

Let's not even go into the fact that in this example you ignored the fact that Soul Reaping is still probably the best Primary attribute in the game and Fast Casting by comparison is a joke - allowing the Necromancer to cram their skillbar further with skills that do things because they need less energy management.

upier · Nov 21, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

No, the Assassin and or Paragon would fill that role.

Yep, I know your amazing necromancer can get r11 sunspear, just like the rest of your characters... wait. ANd your necro can cast all those spells in near spike speed because of fast casting, because N/Mes have fast casting because of their amazing ..soul reaping...oh, again...wait...

Let me get this straight:
1. first you trash what is probably the most insane class in the game
2. then you trash what is the most insane PvE primary attribute

And you still hope to be EVER taken seriously?
Dude, seriously stop while you are not that insanely far behind.

Esan · Nov 21, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

SOI + 18 Illusion Magic + Necrosis = Me/N > N/X. Mesmers seem to have this uncanny ability to play a primary caster class better then the primary caster itself can play.

As long as no other elites are used, perhaps. But then your argument boils down to mesmers are the best one-trick ponies in the game. I didn't think this point was in dispute.

arcanemacabre · Nov 21, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

No, the Assassin and or Paragon would fill that role.

In order of things, it usually goes as follows (most popular to least) The similar symbols mean they are interchangeable.

I was more or less talking hypothetically, and with the idea that the leader of this 'dream team' is the "best GW player ever," whoever that might be (hypothetical, remember?). That said, what classes are chosen is dependant on the usefulness (damage/heal/prot/utility/synergy) of the class. With all of that, Mesmers are chosen last, if at all.

And yeah... Soul Reaping so owns Fast Casting it's not even funny.

nugzta · Nov 21, 2007, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Funny thats he keeps bragging Mesmer to be damage dealer which mesmer is not essentially designed for. Mesmer is primarily shutdown class but still inferior to ranger for shutting down pve.

Id take SR than FC tbh. Whats the point having to spam spells bit faster if the energy doesnt keep up.

Sab · Nov 21, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

No, that is using Signet of Illusions @ 16 Illusion Magic. Meaning r11 Sunspear, GL getting that on any other character. Up it to 18 illusion for r13 sunspear for fun.

My point is that you can't compare PvE skills to normal skills, PvE skills are naturally better. And if you want to bring PvE skills into the equation, grab a bear.

Res Ipsi · Nov 21, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Just because you work, doesn't mean you're good at it. I'd much rather have an equally experienced player on another class.

A matter of preference. Some players prefer to mindlessly thrash their way through equally mindless PvE monster-masses while others prefer to do so with a little more thought behind what they're doing. It works because many of us are good at it.

Melkorium · Nov 21, 2007, 11:35 AM // 11:35

With all this build wars and stat munching I can't help but feel the fun factor and personal preference of playing a mesmer in PvE has got lost.

Sure, you're never likely to be in demand for most PUG's and that's probably the main reason you don't see many of them. But avoiding narrow-minded PUG's can be a blessing and if you're having alot fun with H/H and guildies/friends then who can really say you're doing something wrong?

Lord Sojar · Nov 21, 2007, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

A matter of preference. Some players prefer to mindlessly thrash their way through equally mindless PvE monster-masses while others prefer to do so with a little more thought behind what they're doing. It works because many of us are good at it.

Oh, but mindless thrashing is efficient and great. And we all know that Guild Wars is so important that we must be razor blade exacting and 10% entropy release efficient should we hope to ever be considered a good player.

See this thread for details:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10204029

Go go super efficient unfun gameplay. Just what I look for when buying a game, mindless AI that can be conquered by almost equally mindless players who lack any form of skill and just happen to have more coordination then a script... well jee, says a lot for our community of players doesn't it? Learn to have fun people, seriously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melkorium

With all this build wars and stat munching I can't help but feel the fun factor and personal preference of playing a mesmer in PvE has got lost.

Sure, you're never likely to be in demand for most PUG's and that's probably the main reason you don't see many of them. But avoiding narrow-minded PUG's can be a blessing and if you're having alot fun with H/H and guildies/friends then who can really say you're doing something wrong?

Yes, I agree completely. Mesmers are just fun, they just happen to actual be semi efficient now as well. PUGs are for idiots anyways, get some friends and make a guild for God's sake.

Avarre · Nov 21, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melkorium

With all this build wars and stat munching I can't help but feel the fun factor and personal preference of playing a mesmer in PvE has got lost.

Sure, you're never likely to be in demand for most PUG's and that's probably the main reason you don't see many of them. But avoiding narrow-minded PUG's can be a blessing and if you're having alot fun with H/H and guildies/friends then who can really say you're doing something wrong?

Nobody. My PvE character is a Mesmer. The argument is not that they character doesn't work, or isn't fun, but that it doesn't work as well as other classes and therefore is less common to see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

A matter of preference. Some players prefer to mindlessly thrash their way through equally mindless PvE monster-masses while others prefer to do so with a little more thought behind what they're doing. It works because many of us are good at it.

Yeah, Cry of Pain takes a lot of thought and skill to use (especially when echo'ed). As does the application of say, Backfire, or Empathy.

Really.

Lord Sojar · Nov 21, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Yeah, Cry of Pain takes a lot of thought and skill to use (especially when echo'ed). As does the application of say, Backfire.

Really.

Oh, you finally make a valid point. Backfire, however, is a bad example, as any mesmer using that skill except for the very few exceptions, needs to rework their skill bar.

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Put on a side of misunderstanding, and dress with generous stereotyping.